Ali Brown

Could you tell us a little bit about what your practice is, please?

I'm a flax weaver, and I have been weaving flax for a number of years since, I guess, the turn of the century, 25 years. I made my first harakeke flower / puti pūti in 1999 at Ōnuku Marae in Akaroa. And from then on, I was working with some friends who were going to polytech to learn flax weaving. I saw the beautiful things they were making, and I thought, "That's for me, I want to do that too." I have done a lot of things in my life, and I guess I've brought my experience from other creative pursuits to my flax weaving. And I've carried on, so because I had that creative background, I was able to pick up flax weaving pretty quickly. And I went on to fairly quickly hold workshops for other people, and eventually that led on to writing books on flax weaving.

And how many books do you have out now?

I have five. I published my latest book, just last November. That's "Flax Weaving for Children of All Ages – Te Raranga Harakeke mā ngā Tamariki Katoa". That's been selling pretty well, and I make sure it gets out into all the libraries as well so that people who don't have the means to buy the books are able to look at them anyway.

And where would somebody buy these books from?

They buy them from my website. I have a shop on my website, so that's directly from me. And some bookshops, the odd bookshop, but not many, McLeod Books in Rotorua, and one or two others, but mainly it's through my shop.

And for the listeners, where would they find your shop?

It’s at www.alibrown.nz/shop/

Wonderful, thank you. You said earlier that you had various other creative pursuits before you picked up flax weaving, what were they?

Ah, wow, goodness. Starting from childhood I guess, knitting and sewing, and then embroidery, leatherwork, silversmithing, and bobbin lace making, which is a form of weaving. So a lot of different things, but when I got to harakeke, I guess, that really pulled me in because it's a sustainable craft. You can just go out into the garden and gather your resources, you don't have to go off and buy them, or import them from overseas, or all those sorts of things. And that's very good for the environment, and the harakeke is just there for use, and it's a beautiful material to work with. So I guess that's what kept me going.

Yeah, wonderful. And I understand you previously used to work for government, and did you manage to balance that creative stuff with the full-time role?

Yes, well I first started weaving when I was working full-time, so that was really just as an interest. And then I started doing workshops, so I was doing those maybe once a month on a Saturday, so that was busy time, I was working full-time. And then I started writing my first book when I was still working full-time. My children, my three sons, had long flown the nest by then, so it was weekend work. And it was a lot of work, but I kept that going. I just had that drive to write instructions, because there was nothing around in that time about how to do different things. So my first book, "Weaving Flowers from New Zealand Flax ", was, and still is, the most popular book that I've written.

And has that changed much now, with regards, you mentioned there wasn't much around at that time, with regards books and resources for flax weaving?

Well, there are a lot more resources online. It's not so much in the book format, although there have been other books, but not so much instructional books. But online, there's the Hetet School of Māori Art, where people can learn weaving, and there's also Te Wānanga o Aotearoa, which has modules for harakeke, so you can do, I think it might be a three-year certificate, I'm not sure if it's a certificate or a degree. And there are a lot of YouTube videos and so on around now, but I think for a lot of people having that paper copy in front of them and being able to just look at it and see is a very easy thing for people to do. It’s a visual thing, I do lots and lots of photographs, so there'd be five or six photographs included as well as a text, and so I've had people saying to me that they're not great readers, but they can follow the photographs. And I had one lady who's a tutor at one of the prisons in the North Island saying that she's been using the books with her students there, and they loved them and said, "I'm really using these books," and even though they said they can't read, they can use the books. And that's something to be able to write an instruction manual that is so easily... I mean, that just stayed with me, that's just stayed as one of the highlights, really.

And we've sort of within this conversation, and I've heard people previously used the terms Flax and Harakeke interchangeably. Is there any real, what's the variance between them?

Well, harakeke is the Māori term for NZ flax, Phormium tenax, which is the upright flax. There's also another sort which is wharariki, Phormium cookianum, which is sort of floppy sort of flax, which is not one for weaving with so much. It doesn't have the fibre inside that you need to make certain things, you can use it for smaller things, but not for larger projects and so on.

And what in your opinion is the most sort of rewarding thing about what you do?

I guess it's the sharing of knowledge. I just really enjoy the sharing of knowledge. I enjoyed that when I was doing the workshops, so it's not just me sharing knowledge with people coming to the workshops, but with them sharing their knowledge with me as well. And sharing the knowledge through the books and the feedback I've had from my books is just very rewarding and delightful. I had an email just recently from a person who has a children’s, a tamariki group, I'm not sure what age, probably about six or seven years old, eight, and so on. And she had bought my set of books, and she showed me this, she sent some photos of the things that the tamariki had made, and they weren't just following the instructions in the books, they were making their own creations as well, so leading on to their own creativity is great to see.

And where is it you find your inspiration for the pieces you make?

Well, I just guess it's all around, really, just being curious and looking at different things that people make and looking at the harakeke itself and just playing around with the harakeke, it has its own, once you start playing around with it, it does its own things. So just being aware that yes, it wants to do this, not that kind of thing, because I'm more of a contemporary weaver than a traditional weaver, so I let it do its own thing, basically.

Wonderful. And what advice would you give to somebody just starting out? I mean, you mentioned understanding the flax itself, is there any other advice you'd give for people starting out with flax weaving or any sort of creative path?

If they want to do it for an income, is that what you're asking?

I don't necessarily mean for an income, I don't think that we need to open up the dialogue to be more about money you can make from it, because there are greater currencies than money.

Yes, I think just try different harakeke, try the different feel of different things, feel it when you're weaving it, see how it goes differently, there are lots of different harakeke types, different bushes, and so different bushes will have different leaves. So use all the different harakeke, see what it's good for, learn how to extract the fibre and see how much fibre it's got inside it, see what colours it dries to. But always try different things and just use it a lot, and don't be scared to just get in there and use it, and make different things, and notice what the harakeke is doing, how it's working, how it's drying, and you'll learn a lot by just trial and error that way.

And is any of that information covered in your books, the variances and stuff?

Possibly not, but I do have some information on my website about harakeke, and also have some free projects and resources, things that people can look at and make some simple things. So, yeah, I think it's really just, some people have said, I don't know what harakeke to collect, you know, how long to keep it, and really it's so tricky to say those things, because summer time it keeps a shorter time, and winter time a longer time. So, you really just have to, it's trial and error with your particular harakeke bushes.

Which leads me to my next question, is like, what do you feel is the role of perseverance and failure within Flax weaving?

Well, it's huge, isn't that perseverance in any form of life, is the thing that keeps one going, doesn't it? You know, I can be weaving something and it's looking awful, you know, a bit tatty, and people can come to a workshop and things are saying, oh, it's just not looking very good. I just say, keep going, just keep weaving, and once the harakeke is dry, it'll be beautiful, because that's what happens. Yeah, so, yeah, perseverance, I think, is just one of those things that is a great thing to have in life.

Yeah, and what are some of the challenges that are currently facing weavers today, and what do you think might help?

Well, I think particularly talking about people who want to sell their flax work, and there are people who are making things to sell, they find it very difficult to price their items. And, you know, some people will price their items quite low, hoping to sell, but really that's not the right way to go in my view. I think you need to take into account the time you take to make something, and the skill that you've used to make something. And if you're selling it below value, well, then you're not doing service to the other people who are professional weavers, professional artists, making the harakeke and selling the same with any creative thing, I guess, is that don't undersell yourself.

Yeah, totally agree. That's something that really struck me when we moved back to New Zealand from the UK, is the value that craft people put on their work, like my partner is a potter, as you know. And people are selling mugs that take some work to do at prices equivalent to the way that Kmart will just throw them out. It's not sustainable.

It’s a real shame and it does undercut other people who really would like to make some sort of income out of their craft.

And people also look at a mug or a weaving and go, why can I buy it cheaper from the supermarkets, not really taking into account the training and the effort and the infrastructure that a small business has to put in in order to get that. So I toyed with the idea of trying to start a movement of trying to talk to craft people to sell their stuff for what it's worth.

Well, I think that's one of the things that people, they find it difficult to do that. And there's a lack of information around about how to do that as far as I can tell, about how to price your work and sell it. And, you know, particularly for harakeke, you get imports from other countries, and they will look like they could be flax, but they're not. And they will sell for $2 for a kete. You know, how do you compete with that? If you don't know that it's not New Zealand made, you don't know do you?

So how would you recommend weavers and craft people go about working out what their craft is worth?

Well, there is, it's tricky, isn't it, because I think it's the same with anything. You need to look at the time you put into it. And that includes the time you gather your, take together your resources and prepare them, make the item, and then think about the skills. So I guess how do other craft people do the same thing? That's one of the things that maybe Creative New Zealand could come up with some guidelines in that sort of sense.

Yeah, sure. Because the price of everything is going up, and you know, if you're a craft person putting your love and effort and time into creating something, you deserve to live just as well as somebody doing any other way of earning a living.

Absolutely, absolutely.

Do you have any tips for weavers wanting to share and promote their work, especially in today's world, given what we've just discussed?

Well, the way I promote my work, and it may not be what everybody would like to use, is social media. I know it's got its pluses and its minuses, but I've found that Facebook and Instagram are the two social media sites that actually work for my particular thing, and I do promote my books that way. So that's, and I find that I need to keep promoting the books that way to keep the word out there. I also have my own database, so every person that's bought a book from me is in my database. So I was really pleased that I started doing that at the beginning, because then I can just contact those people when there's a new book out. But there's always people who don't know about my books, and it is that social media that gets it out to them.

And how much work do you feel you have to put into this social media promotion side of stuff compared to working on your craft?

It has to be regular, I think. It really has to be regular, and when I'm writing a book, I don't do a regular thing. And I notice that it does make a bit of a difference, but if you do a regular, maybe once a week, something like that doesn't have to be much. It just keeps your information at the top of people's minds.

What sort of post do you find get the greatest sort of engagement with yourself?

Posts about how to do things. How, or maybe just, "This is what I've done, you know, you might like to try." I know that on my website, the blog posts and the pages about instructional things are the ones that are visited the most. So, I think that's what people like to see. But also, people are interested in, you know, just if you have your website there, they can go to your website and have a look at some of them and have a look at other things. So, I think anything that's a visual, even a slight, just a little, I've just started doing in the last year or two, a little video about four or five seconds, that seems to work better than a still. Interesting, isn't it.

Are there any resources or workshops or organisations you'd recommend for people looking to explore other than your own books, obviously?

Well, I mentioned before the Hetet School of Māori Art and I think there are, you know, in bigger centres, there are a lot of local places who do workshops every now and then. But online, there's a lot of YouTube tutorials, so I think that's, that's, you know, there's a bit more information around than there used to be, that's for sure.

And I understand there's a tikanga around using Flax. Can you give me a brief overview?

Yes, there is. Anybody who's weaving with flax needs to know the tikanga, which is Māori traditional protocols, for weaving with harakeke. Now, just some to start with, if you're cutting flax generally, you would say a small karakia or prayer, just to, I guess, recognise that you're cutting the flax and, you know, recognising the value of what you're using. And then you're not cutting the centre, centre shoot in the two side ones, that's the pōtiki / baby and the parents, you're cutting the side leaves. So, it's a sustainable way of harvesting, actually. So, you know, it's just a wise way of keeping your harakeke plants healthy and alive.

Thank you for that. And how do you approach your own growth and development as a weaver?

Oh, I don't know whether I consciously approach it. I think it's an unconscious, just something that, because I'm a creative person and I enjoy harakeke, it just doesn't stop. Sometimes you think, "Please stop," but it doesn't stop. So, you know, it just keeps going. So, just curiosity about things around and, you know.

And do you ever, do you ever get to points where you get to like a creative block where you just, "I can't face this at the moment"? And how would you push through it or do you, do not, do you give it the space?

I don't get a creative block, really, but last year I actually got a bit overwhelmed, because I was writing a different book from the one I published. And it is more advanced weaving and there are some quite advanced creative concepts in it. And I was trying to push myself to get this done and I realised, "You're pushing yourself, you're not doing it properly." You know, you need to stop and start again and just do it properly so that you're showing exactly what you mean and you're showing it properly and you're not just rushing through and making a silly job of it. So, yeah, that was it. So, I've stopped that, that's sitting there waiting for me to get back to it. So, I will get back to it sometime, perhaps this year.

Well, the year is young. Earlier you mentioned the lovely story about how you heard of the flax weaving, your books being used in prison, correctional facility, and the response to that. Do you have any other stories about your career that you've really, that enliven you and make you feel really proud about what you do?

Well, one other thing that struck me and it was a few years ago now, just after we'd moved up to Tasman, probably about six or seven years ago, I was asked to speak at a fibre group. And so, I went and spoke there and the introduction was that I was a Flax weaver and Author. And I think, "Oh, so I am." So, I'd sort of kind of writing the books had gradually come upon me, without me even realising and then being called an author was sort of, "Oh yes, so I am." Because really, I got into writing the books just by... I was actually doing a workshop for a national convention for Out of School Care groups. And I realised that the people there, they only had a short time to come and do make a putiputi, a flower. And so, I made a short little booklet of notes and I made 40 copies of this and they went like hotcakes. And that was the spur for me just going on to think, "Oh, there's a gap in this" and going on to writing. So, I just fell into it really and I wrote the flowers book and I thought, "How many should we print?" Oh, maybe a hundred. So, went to a printer and it was so expensive to do that we decided to print them ourselves. And so, we did that and found a way that we could print them a lot more cheaply. And so, from then, it's grown. And last year we celebrated the, that we'd sold 10,000 copies of the collection, not each book, but of the collections. So, I mean, I think, perhaps that makes them best sellers. I don't know.

What are OSCAR people?

Oh, OSCAR is, I don't know if it still exists. I suppose it does. It's the Out Of School Care groups. You know, after school care and before school care.

You said you found a more affordable way of printing the books. Can you talk to that? You comfortable talking to that?

Yes, it was, it's called a Continuous Ink System. And you're not using the inks that are proprietary in the printers, so it's a fraction of the cost of inks. Because I do, as I say, have about five or six images on each page. So, it's a huge amount. And we work with a company in Australia, actually, who provides the inks we buy them from.

So, you print them yourselves and bind them as well?

So, I print them as, yeah, my husband, very usefully, I guess, prints the books and binds them. And edits them for me too, which is great. And he's also the dispatch person. I mean, it would be such a big job now that it's not possible without the two of us doing it. So, yeah, it's great that he's able to do that.

Wonderful, yay, for Rob. Ali, is there any words of advice or guidelines you would like to offer to anybody looking to follow a creative path for an income?

Yes, the first thing I would say was have another income, to pay the rent and pay the food. But also, to try different things, you may think that you're going to go down the creative path in one thing. And the actual fact, the actual way that you end up is doing something different. So, be open to all those different things. Don't just cut it off for specifics. "I want to do this one thing." Be open to doing different things. And, you know, there are so many different creative things to do the same as you’re doing, Rich. Different things. So, it's not just making things, but there are other kinds of creative paths to take.

And earlier, I posed to you a question before we came in what piece of music, you would like to be played. But you said about the bird song and that you love working outdoors. Can you talk to the joy that that brings you or why that's the way for you?

Yes, I've always worked outside. I don't find it very relaxing and creative to work in a room for flax weaving. So, I love to have a place outside and the places I've lived and have always had a place outside where I can weave. And just having the bird song and the trees and so on is just the environment that I need to be doing my weaving.

And just before we wrap up, could we tell listeners again where they can find your work?

Okay. I have a website at www.alibrown.nz. All the information about my books and projects that people can do and information about harakeke itself is all on there.

And all your books are still in print?

They're always in print and are a continuous print.

Yeah, is there anything else you'd like to add before we wrap up?

Well, I just think that harakeke is a particularly uniquely New Zealand creative kind of thing to do. And I would encourage people to think about using it as this because it's a resource that's sustainable. It's there for the taking, as long as you do understand that you need to ask people and so on. And it's a beautiful thing to work with and you'll get much joy from it.

Wonderful, Ali. Thank you so much for your time today. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you.