Jamie Smith

Okay and what was your personal journey in the sort of twists and turns?

I wouldn't say it was direct. My mother's a ceramicist so it's always been around since I was a child.

But I guess when you grow up in something it's quite often you reject it or rebel against it. Not that I rebelled against it but it didn't really appeal to me until my mid-20s, so about 10 years ago. At which point Tom and I actually we were living, we were both living in Auckland and we both had some friends who were potting at Auckland Studio Potters ASP out in Onehunga.

So we joined a night class there with Susie Dunser and took to it pretty quickly. Tom took it super seriously and went off to Japan to try and find a sensei to guide him in his journey and was pretty successful at that. And then yeah I just kepthobby potting in New Zealand and came back from overseas, was working, well just hobby potting from the Nelson Community Potters.

It's a great facility and what happened? Oh I was working for my mum just running her business, what she could just make. And then COVID happened actually. So we needed to find a new studio and I got locked in the house for six weeks in that first lockdown and my brain went into overdrive.

I started thinking about a space where people could create and mum could have somewhere to work from and it justkept going and going in my brain and then started looking for spaces, came across the amazing space Kiln Den and I don't know, things just started falling into place and mum came and joined the crew and we bought some wheels and the rest isslow, slow history. And pursuing a creative path isn't always seen as the most conventional way to earn a living and whatsupport or reaction did you receive from your parents or family when you started? Well I mean, good reaction I suppose. I mean I've always been in creative fields, I've never really, like before I did this I was a documentary editor who was just a little bit sick of sitting in dark rooms.

So I've always had creative jobs. So I guess, I don't know, it's part of the course, especially since I was working with mum at the time, she actually helped me with a lot of the funding to get everything off the ground and yeah, it's a good support of people to have around.

Yeah, I've seen your mum's work, it's some brilliant stuff, no wonder you got the support.

Yeah, she's been doing it for a long time. But what sparked the transition from being like a maker, apart from the ruminating over COVID, to actually becoming an entrepreneur and setting up Hot Clay? Good question. I guess at that stage I wouldn't call myself a practising potter, like it wasn't my income, I was still editing.

So setting up Kiln was originally more intended to give me a place to practise, but mainly a mum a place to practise. And, you know, the way to pay for that was to be entrepreneurial and expand outside of that reach and bring in other ways of making money. And that turned into me finding my ability to teach, which is probably where most of Kiln's money comes from, which is nice.

I really enjoy teaching and it's really rewarding tobring ceramics to the widercircle and, you know, build that up again in Nelson. And what were the sort of key moments or sort of biggest challenges you faced when you were establishing Kiln Studio? Ah, okay. Well, like the first idea I had coming out of COVID was for Kiln to be, Kiln was supposed to be half pottery studio, half professional pottery studio for like three to four people.

And then the other half of the space was designed to be multi-use so that artists could come in and run their own workshops from the space. And the first hurdle I ran into was corralling artists, herding cats. So getting people to, everyone would be very excited and very keen, but then actually when it like push came to shove, signing on the dotted line and committing to doing these things, this was, it was a lot more work than I had expected.

so the way we got through that was when Tom came on board, we converted the space into, uh, a teaching studio basically. So we bought a number of wheels and popped them in the space. And from there we could control what was happening and made it much easier andended up expanding what Kiln was.

So itnaturally happened. Yeah. My, my last then was more of recognition than anything else.

Like trying to corral creative people into committing is always a bit of a challenge, but, well done for running a festival. What are the really important things that you've found with creating and protecting that physical space for creative people to be in?

Things have to have order.

Right. If, if you don't have, if things don't have places, then they just get put down anywhere. It just turns into chaos super quickly.

So organisation and order creates organisation in order, if you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, definitely. In a, in a big shared studio space like that, just things having a logical, easy to find space really made a big difference. That took us about two and a half, three years to work out.

I think, I think everything like organically finds its own space, but, yeah, that was a big one to work out. And then, being welcoming and just creating, creating an atmosphere of like, you know, sharing your skills and like being open about it. Someone's having an issue and you know, the answer, we ask that people, people teach each other.

And it's a nice, nice way to get to know people and, you know, find out new things. Pottery is one of thosedaunting ones where the more you learn, the more you learn, you don't know. It canfeel like going backwards sometimes, even though you're moving forward.

Yeah. The one thing I found is the pottery community, you obviously, you know, my partner Liz is a potter as well, is like so supportive of each other and each other's journey and so free with their knowledge. And it's, it's one of the most wholesome creative pursuits I've ever sort of witnessed.How do you find that? Because you've, you've created a community like of people in the flesh working and how have you seen that influence the learning process and the creative development of people using your space?

That's an interesting one. I think people just feed off each other. They, like someone will try a new place and someone will ask them a question about it and they'll look over and see two people deep in discussion about, you know, something that was achieved and whether they even know how, how it happened or not.

It's really interesting. and I guess it's that, that slow building of, you know, each person's individual style. Like no one, no one sits down at the wheel and is who they're going to be as a potter instantly.

It's always, it's always about experimentation and changing things and adjusting. And those are the things you pick up from other people. Like every potter is a collection of tips and tricks from other people basically, or like forging ahead in their own way and learning by mistakes.

Definitely. This is the one thing that always gets me is, is about pricing ceramics. How do you approach valuing your own work and advising others, especially considering there's such a public perception that they can pick up a mug from Kmart for $3.

Honestly, it's, it's not an easy, simple equation. It's, it's really hard, especially for the beginner potters, because they don't want to be in a position where they're undercutting, undercutting, you know, people who've been potting for a long, long time, but they also don't want to be selling their work for the same price. So it's like, uh, I don't know, it's really impossible to get a straightforward answer for this equation.

I don't think people should be selling their work too early. I think, I think you need to reach a certain level to be comfortable to sell your work at certain levels, at gallery level, at least. I mean, Christmas gifts and a market here and there is no big deal at all, but, yeah, you, you want to, you, you want to know what you're doing, I think, before you're selling your work.

That's really good advice. Like knowing, knowing that your cup will, hold, hold tea and water, that it's vitrified and that it's safe. Yeah.

Those are just, they're not things that, you know, straight off the bat. Not when you're like six weeks out of a beginner course. Oh dear, yeah.

There's a lot to learn. Definitely. And on the sort of similar note, we often see like designs in large chainsaws, chainsaws, chain stores, that look very similar to the work by a lot of independent makers, even made to look handmade.

How do you think about that? How frustrating is that? I know, Liz will look at a pot and then just go, ah, damn it. and it's selling for three dollars or something. And you know that's been pilfered from somebody's, she can often name the ceramicist or potters that she's seen the design originate from.

Like how, how does that, how does that impact like people who are putting in the graft? The general public's perception of and value of ceramics is, completely diminished. I mean, in New Zealand in particular, cause we had, uh, I guess our protectionist society,at what up until the seventies, uh, pottery was huge. Everybody's, everybody's home pottery was the local potters.

And it was just like a booming, booming economy. But as soon as imports started and, you could, you know, buy your, buy your pot straight from Thailand and they cost, you know, for one, the price of one pot, you could get a whole set and it was perfect. And it could go, it was nice and hardy porcelain, of course, devalued everything else, which means that over time, that deception of what a cup should cost has changed completely.

We noticed that heaps when we had the gallery that, if they were not someone who was like a fan of ceramics already that come in and Google it, all of the cups and be like, Oh, it's so nice. And then turn it over and see the price tag of anywhere from 45 to $65. That's quite, we turn it back over and place it back on the shelf and back away slowly all the way out the door.

And I think a lot of it's just education because having the gallery and having the, studio was really convenient because we could have an awesome conversation in the gallery about what it actually goes into it. Then we could also convince them to come into the studio and try a lesson. And you'd see like it was day and night, the, pre and post that experience, like they'd come back into the, into the gallery and everything would be, they'd see it with fresh eyes and they'd be interested in asking how all of these things are achieved.

And instantly they've got that appreciation for the value of what it is. So that's a big thing we try to do with Kwewe isget as many people as we can from the street, having a go on a potter's wheel or working with Kwewe and trying to find the value in it. That's another big thing with Kewne as well is about like teaching what goes into actual quality ceramics and how to achieve it.

And it's not just, not just like attending a, attending a one day hand building pottery class and you've got a mug, it'sa lot more goes into just thought of design and your finish and all of those little things like the lips and the handle and you can interact with the body. Totally. Sorry, I started rambling there.

No, I know it's, I, you know, I, my, my favourite job I've ever done was a potter's assistant. So I'm, I'm totally on team with this one. This sort of leads me on to the whole spirit of handmade and how do we, we educate or how do we communicate is probably a better way that the spirit of something that is in, has inherited value by being handmade rather than something that may from a couple of steps away look the same, but is made in some factory.

How do, how do we do that? I don't know. I suppose when you think of making, hand making something for somebody, the person you have in your mind is already somebody who loves the handmade. So what I guess we're talking about is how do we convince somebody that doesn't have any appreciation or like that doesn't matter to them, that isn't, that isn't on their radar.

They're, they're completely happy with their, their beige house from Kmart. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but how do we convince those people that drinking their coffee out of a handmade mug is all the, is like, it's worth the experience. It's worth putting that extra value in how you wash it.

Even just the difference between, oh, can this cup go in the dishwasher or should I take care of it and wash it by hand? how do you teach those things? And I do think it's taking it back to the education and the experience. And, I don't know, TV shows like the great British pottery showdown or whatever it's called. That's, that's the education that teaching people what goes into it, that teaches people why they should value it over, the mass produced.

And I think that's an awesome show, but I think there could be a different type of show that maybe does a slightly different version of that. Yeah. So the rise of pottery on things like social media, especially Instagram has been quite phenomenal and you get some rockstar potters.

What do you think, is driving that? And where do you think it's going to ultimately play out?

I think my assumption, and this has no basis in any research or anything is that, people still want to do, they want to do things with their hands, but the more and more they stare into their phones, the more just watching it is replacing that thing. So I did, I mean, recently I've had a video go, uh, not viral, viral, but pottery viral. and it was just me teaching how to send a, and it's just some good angles of clay moving around smoothly.

And I've been talking to people and half of them aren't even listening to the instructions. They're just literally watching me center clay, which is, you know, in the pottery world, like watching paint dry, it makes no sense. But, I think it's just almost hypnotised by how it works in the right person's head.

For someone who might be working as a production potter, and making the same stuff over and over again, would you think is a good way for people to keep that passion for the artistry alive?

Uh, well, I guess the classic is your, you have your bread and butter and then you have what interests you. And if you can cross them over, like, yeah, but I'd say most potters, theyhave two, two parts of their brain. So one is the production side of things that'll get sent out to galleries and keeps money moving in, which allows you to do your exploration and your interesting parts.

So I don't know, for me, the way I get around it is my production is never the same. So I don't reproduce the same cup over and over and over again. All my cups are different.

And, you know, I might out of, out of throwing 20 or 25 in a session, I'll look at them and I'll pick out small elements from each of them that I like. And those elements tend to make their way into more and more of my work. So I guess over time, they will end up relatively uniform.

But, I think if you're a production potting and you've got, uh, you've got standards, so like, like standard shapes and things that you send out and people want repeatability, the way I would stay sane would be to have another part of my practise, which is adventurous. And, you know, you might sit making vases or like something that you're not, you don't normally do. That would be how I'd keep the interest in that.

Yeah. I mean, I tend to do with my own practises, one for them, one for me, it's, yeah, because you've got to make some money, but you will say you've got to keep your craft alive and your, your heart in what you do.

Exactly.

Yeah. And I mean, it's, it is hard, uh, producing the same thing over and over again, but it's also amazing practise. It's like time that you, everything's getting ensured.

It depends like at what stage of your career you're at, beginning of it, having that production skill is amazing. It's always going to make you a better potter. But if, I mean, it's, you know, we've been doing it for a long time.

It does become a bit of a chore, doesn't it? And I think it's also like you can become really successful at something and it becomes a rod for your own back. For example, Liz used to make these pint mugs and we were in Frome and they would just fly off the shelves. Everybody was wanting to buy a big pint mug and it just became something that was a bit of a, a chore, chore to keep doing.

So, yeah, I guess it's like the potter's version of being a type cast actor. It's, yeah, you might get stuck into like sending out an experiment and it flies off the shelf and then you're like, okay, I guess that's who I am and what I do now. And, it might be a bit scary to go outside of those bounds.

You don't know what will happen. And, but I'll also say that I would love a pint mug. Yeah, me too.

You're doing Kiln Studio and you're, doing the classes and I'm presuming you're also trying to make space for your own life. And how do you manage to balance everything out?

I don't know. I don't know if I do, to be honest.

I don't, I think I'm, uh, very much at the moment still trying to work out how that all balances with itself. It's, yeah, it's, it's an interesting challenge keeping, keeping, uh, burnout at bay, especially taking on things like, uh, clay week and everything else. So I don't know.

I don't know if I have an answer for that one yet. Come back to me in a year. So what's, what's next for you? What are you working on now? at the moment we're putting in quite a bit of work at the studio.

It's, the, the recession is having its countrywide toll on everyone. So we're just trying to make, make sure everything stays functioning and, humming. We're trying to get as many people through as we can.

It's interesting doing something like we are in a place like Nelson, like it's great and awesome place to try and test things. But we also have a limited supply of customers, whereas somewhere like Auckland or Wellington, you know, even Christchurch, you've got a hundred thousand more people to, to work with. so we're just trying to be creative with how we, you know, bring in funds and get, get, make sure everything stays afloat basically at this point.

And is there anything that's going on at Kiln studios you'd really like to make sure that people are aware of? what's happening.

We do every second Friday night, we do an awesome little taster called date night. It doesn't have to be a, you don't have to be in a couple.

You could be like, siblings or just friends. It's just a way that they have a bit of fun with a mate on a Friday night. we've got the six week beginner intro course that keeps going.

That starts this week, actually. so that'll run for six weeks and then there'll be a week break and then it'll start again. we've got a few spaces in our membership.

So we've run a really small membership. That's just 20 people. and there's a few spaces there available for people who are just looking for somewhere to create like a beautiful inspirational space, uh, with some lovely people.

And. Oh, we've got some amazing residents at the moment in Italy, Marco and Vanessa. So there's a Venetian trained sculptors and they're, uh, working towards a show that opens at project 100 for the next couple of weeks.

What would you say to a young version of you, to help them on their journey?

I don't know. I don't know, actually. I mean, everything'splayed out how it should, I guess, in a way, like taking on the gallery at such an early time, like having just started a kiln was probably maybe not the right choice in way, but it gave us so many opportunities that we wouldn't have had otherwise.

Like, I don't think clay week would be a thing if we didn't open that gallery. And we met so many people through it and created like great connections, which allowed clay week to be a thing, but it also meant that it took us about three and a half years to get either business off the ground because we were trying to do two at the same time. And neither Tom or I have been to business school and we're both potters.

So you can imagine how hard that might've been.

As a Potter and you want to get your work out there, what paths do you think that potters should take on board with regard getting theired work out there? How do you get it seen?

The easiest is Instagram, Facebook, Pinterest, online. The, that's the easiest way that you can do it from your house.

The other ways would be getting your work into galleries across the country. Don't, pigeonhole yourself to one city. You need to send your work across the whole country for it to be seen by as many eyes as possible.

That's the other thing with pottery, like the photo is great, but you need to be able to touch it, like, but to be able toreally figure out if it's any good in markets as well, I guess. Yeah. And what tips would you, would you offer people with regards how to get it into galleries? Like I wouldn't have the first idea how to approach a gallery and go, will you take.

You, you find a gallery that suits your work and approach them. Don't, don't just show up at the gallery with your work in hand. It's not the best way of doing things.

Just enquire via email with some photos and have your prices and everything ready. It's, it's a, it's, it's a quite a confusing, it's quite a confusing formula when you first approach galleries and you don't know how it works and you don't know how commission works or, or any of those things. So do a bit of research first.

That's,the equation, do I send my work out to galleries and they sell it for me and take their commission? Or do I spend all of that time trying to sell my work and keep all of the money for myself? So that's, that's what you're trying to work out yourself because it's a lot of time to sell all that work, ship it out. 40% commission to a gallery sounds like a lot, but it, it, it is balanced. It's a hard balance, but it's balanced.

Yeah. And they do all the packing as well, which is my least favourite bit. It's that's where they do the packing, the selling, they've got their physical store that's open.

Every gallery has a different system. So maybe you're responsible for shipping work to them. Maybe they pay you upfront, buying your work wholesale.

It's a wild world, but there's a, there's a really good Facebook group. uh, I can't remember what it's called, New Zealand Studio Pottery maybe. And it's got nearly every potter in the country in it.

And it's always a good place to ask for advice or if something's happening, nice little hive minders, like-minded folk.

Wonderful. And just before we close, how, how do people find you and your work or the studio? filmstudio.nz is how you'd find out about the studio and what's going on.

Following us on Instagram or Facebook's a really good way to keep up to date with what's happening. So that's just kiln.studio on Instagram. My work is a little bit, backseat at the moment, but you can find some of it at Francis Nation down in Christchurch.

I just sent them a box of stuff. And I also have some, we've got some of the studio's work just outside the studio on Bridge Street, which is available for purchase. So that's like a collection of works for myself and other potters who pot in the studio.

So that's a nice place to come up and look for some gifts.

Thanks for, for, for being with us and thanks so much for your time. And I look.