Mat Tait

Mat Tait

Photo by Nina van der Voorn / Nelson-Mail

The Work

The Sail Wagners the Flying Dutchman The Heading Dog Who Split In Half: Legends and Tall Tales From New Zealand Te Wehenga Detail Waka Face in the Ferns Band Illustration Te Wehenga Cover All Cats are Killers Dream Map of New Zealand To Whome it May Concern Maori

The Tales

Welcome Matt to Hearth Tales, it's a privilege to have you here. For those unfamiliar with your journey, could you give us a brief overview of who you are and what you do?

Yeah, so I am an illustrator, sometimes writer of quite often children's books, but I do a lot of illustration for different things. Yeah, an artist for hire, I suppose, but my interests mostly lie in creating picture books for children and yeah, that's where I'm kind of heading more and more.

And you tackle quite complex cultural and significant narratives from what I've seen. How do you choose your projects?

Yeah, that's a good question. Sometimes they choose me, so you know, often the work that I do is contract work, so someone will approach me with a project, the story often will have already been written or partially written, and they'll approach me to work with the author to do the illustrations. But occasionally I'm sort of lucky enough to be offered the chance to do something that I want to do. For instance, a few years back after I did a book with Courtney Sina Meredith, who was the writer, called The Adventures of Tupaea, which sort of coincided with the commemorations of Captain Cook's first arrival here. I was approached to do a book about Tupaea, who was an Ariki and a navigator from Raiatea, and he jumped on board the Endeavour with Cook when he came through. He was an excellent navigator and guided Cook around the islands, eventually coming here to Aotearoa, where much to everyone's surprise, Tupaea was able to act as an interpreter because the languages were very similar. Anyway, I did that book, and it was well received, so the publisher, Allen & Unwin, asked me what I wanted to do next. I thought about it and decided to create Tūwhenga, a bilingual retelling in picture book form of the separation of Rangi and Papa. The reason I chose that story is because it struck me deeply as a child and stayed with me throughout my life. It felt like a good opportunity to retell it in my own way.

Thanks. And how do you go about researching for these projects?

So I talk to people, I read as much as I possibly can. That's pretty much it, really. I go out and find people with the knowledge I need, people who can offer me good guidance, and get their visions of the stories, get their opinions on what I'm doing. But yes, a lot of reading.

Right. And then from the reading, what's the general process towards making the work? What do you do next to start drawing things out?

Yeah, yeah, so I would normally just start in my sketchbook, and when I have ideas, I'll just sketch out a particular scene or a phrase or maybe a page layout really roughly and have a play around to see if it's going to work. In the case of Tūwhenga, the text and the images came almost at the same time or side by side. I wrote it originally in te reo and then later translated it into English because for me that was the correct way to tell the story. As I was doing that, the images would come, and I would sketch them down and see where the text might fit within the pictures. It's just a matter of doing it really roughly and then refining it, both the words and the pictures.

Wonderful. Your work often navigates between myth and legend and the tangible world. Where do you see the boundaries between these two?

Yeah, I mean, the boundaries kind of shift depending on where you're at, what you're looking for, and whether you're paying attention. There's always overlap, and it's a pretty permeable boundary. I feel the presence of those stories and the people in those stories often.

That's a lot of responsibility in carrying that. How do you manage it?

Yeah, it can feel very heavy at times. But that's when those worlds really overlap, and you can seek guidance or just get a suggestion that you're going in the right direction or not.

Myths and legends often serve as allegories for universal human experiences. In your exploration of these stories, what recurring themes or truths about the human condition have you discovered?

Oh, many. With a story like Tūwhenga, there are many layers to it. The story can mean different things to different people at different times in their lives. For instance, when I was a young boy, I felt keenly the plight of the children of Rangi and Papa, trapped and breathless between their unheeding parents. It struck and disturbed me. Later in life, I was more struck by the tragedy of Rangi and Papa's separation and their inability to recognise their children's needs. A friend of mine mentioned how the part where Tāne Mahuta perseveres in separating his parents resonated with her as a message of perseverance. It's a creation story, but also a story of creation—where ideas come from, how they find form, and how they get away from us.

How do you see these myths manifesting in contemporary society, if at all?

Well, one of the most important things about these stories being told and retold is that it keeps them alive. They provide a cultural throughline that supports and grounds us. These stories aren't just myths and legends; they're living stories of a living culture. As long as they're told, we're reminded of that.

The stories you tell often have authenticity and power. How do you ensure you imbue that with the natural world?

I don't really know, it just comes out naturally. When doing more commercial work, I sometimes have to tone it down because they don't always want that kind of intensity.

Talking about the practicalities of working with publishers, how does that generally work with you? How do you keep that creative vision alive, and what's their involvement?

It varies. Allen & Unwin, the publisher I've worked with, are quite hands-off and trust my instincts. I've been surprised at the amount of leeway I've gotten. In the past, working on educational material for the Ministry of Education, it was very laid out and structured. Working with a bigger publisher like Allen & Unwin, there's more flexibility and creativity, which is really refreshing.

Do you have much influence on the author as well? Does that flow both ways?

It depends on how willing the author is to work with me and vice versa. I'm always keen to work with an author because that back and forth discussion of ideas makes for a better book. They come up with things I wouldn't have thought of and vice versa. As long as the relationship is good, the best ideas come to the fore.

There's quite a lot of shared risk in publishing books between the artists, creatives, and the publisher. How does that play out?

Well, I don't share any financial risk. Usually, I get some money from the publisher and some via grants to see me through the work period because the advance for a book doesn't usually cover the time needed. When the book comes out, I receive royalties from the start, regardless of whether the book makes money in the long term. In New Zealand, it's a small market, so it's not a lot of money, but it can be helpful if the books stay in print and get a lot of use in libraries.

Alan & Unwin are international, aren't they? Would they carry your work abroad?

Not as far as I know. Tūwhenga and Tupaea were sold in the New Zealand and Australian markets, and a French version was sold in Tahiti. My interests are very specific to New Zealand, which may make them a tough sell overseas. But it would be wonderful to have European readers pick up these works.

For aspiring comic book writer-artists trying to establish a relationship with a publisher, how would you advise them to navigate that?

I started my illustration career doing educational material for school journals and related publications. I got those jobs by taking drawings to the office or emailing them. Eventually, they started giving me work. The biggest break was doing a series of comics with a friend, Michael Brown, who was uncovering interesting old stories. We self-published a comic, and people liked it. We did more, shopped it around to publishers, and got a book deal. That exposure led to more work.

Is there any character or story you've worked on that particularly resonates with you?

When I was illustrating the Tupaea book, I spent a lot of time thinking about Tupaea and what it must have been like for him. Trying to put myself in his shoes, imagining his experiences. It was like walking in his footsteps for a while.

If you could offer advice to a young version of yourself, knowing what you know now, what would you say?

It's difficult to imagine, but I often say that talent is probably the least important part of the formula for success. The largest part is perseverance and doing the work.

For our listeners, how can they find your work?

You can find Tūwhenga and Tupaea in pretty much any bookshop around the country. If you live in Te Tau Ihu, around Nelson or Te Waipounamu, I've got a bit of public art scattered about. You can visit my website, MatTait.com I'm also on Instagram, though I've been a bit slack lately. Those are probably the best ways.

Thank you very much for your time, Matt. That's been awesome. Is there anything else you want to say before we go?

No, thank you very much.